Wednesday, November 24, 2021


I know there are a lot of people carrying. I never hear of ND from those guys. Cops, they lose guns and mistakenly shoot them all the time but the general pop, carrying, I never hear about them. Perhaps they carry like I would and don't have a round in the spout. Difficult to to with semi-automatics.


Beaner49 said...

It isn't difficult at all to carry a semi-auto without a round in the chamber.
It is just a really bad idea.

You tube gunfight without a round in the chamber for a lot of examples why this is a really, really bad idea

boron said...

I've considered the philosophy and safety behind this idea:
1. I keep the hammer down on an empty chamber of my 44 and pull the trigger rotating the cylinder and placing the hammer, ready to strike with just a bit more force, over a live primer
2. I have to flip the safety off on my 45 and the hammer is ready to strike a live primer when I pull the trigger
Should I find myself in a situation which I shouldn't be in in the first place, somehow I prefer alternative 2.
The conscious thought process of applying enough pressure to rotate the cylinder just isn't that far removed from flipping off the safety.

samoore said...

The FNX-45 has a decocker, which allows you to drop the hammer after chambering a round.
For your first round there's a choice: squeeze the trigger and fire DA, or pull the hammer back for SA.

If you prefer 9mm, the CZ-75D also has a decocker.

HMS Defiant said...

It’s one of the reasons I don’t carry.…one of those questions asked and largely unanswered, if I need a gun, should I be here,
Watching the parade massacre, the same question popped. I made the mistake of being there once, won’t do it again.

Beaner49 said...

well if you are relying on the bad guy/s not to hurt you just because you don't resist....
And you don't get to choose when you will need to protect yourself or loved ones.
Yes you have made the choice not to carry and I respect that , you will have to live with that decision.
And the restrictions it entails.

Anonymous said...

I've carried a semiauto daily for over 20 years, and haven't had an ND with them. Training & attention are all that's required. as noted by others, the 1911, if carried 'cocked and locked', requires that the thumb safety be disengaged; my P229, among others, has a decocker, which lowers the hammer.
--Tennessee Budd

HMS Defiant said...

I don't leave the house without a knife. I find that it keeps the bad guys at bay. On the gripping hand, never had to pull a knife for defense in 60 years. I do pull it out for pie and apples. Funny how there is nothing quite as useful as a knife in a given situation. On the other hand, I was just looking at inner harbor Baltimore where I walked to a Barnes and N oble back in the day. I also walked around the city and for all it is a hellhole, it wasn't a scary hellhole by the light of day. I wouldn't be caught dead there after dark. As Mal, says, I mean to resist with everything I've got. I just don't ever mean to give a lawyer everything I have and ever will have after shooting some loser who deserved it. Not everybody gets millions dumped on their legal defense fund.

HMS Defiant said...

I carried a USG 45 for two months in Kuwait. It was a genuine pain in the ass. Most of the team stopped carrying by day 2 but I had faith in Saddam and his little terrorist bastards. I wore it on my hip, my boss wore his under his arm. I live on the fringe of a formerly great metropolis. The only time I go downtown, usually is to visit my bank which is on the 23rd floor of the federal building and there's 90 wanna be cops to keep even pocket knives out. There are six shootings a day a few blocks from here but thats in metroparkcentralis and we have cops that keep that sort of thing out of our town. I can listen now on the intertubes to the SHPD cop radio and I hear them from time to time asking dispatch if metro needs help because there's "a hell of lot of gunfire over there." When I was younger and irresponsible I did visit places where a gun might have been required. As I got older I found I really didn't have to go to them. Now admittedly, I had a nice chat with the postal clerk at my local post office, closed now for about a year because, they got robbed hard. But once they've put in the bullet proof glass and the fence and a few other attractive features, they'll reopen. I happen to be a natural shot with either hand but I really never want to in the place Kyle Rittenhouse went. speak softly, carry a really dangerous knife. Nobody really expects the victim to close the target at enormous speed and slash.

John in Philly said...

ND. One of life's great lessons was learning that lowering the hammer to half cock on a 1911 type pistol and having slippery hands was a very bad combination.
Thanks to following the safe direction rule, no harm done.
Those skivvies needed replacing anyway.

HMS Defiant said...

Oh yeah, decocking a 45 is a life and death experience.

billo said...

There's some data on this. In one study of LEO negligent discharges, about 50% happened in low-threat situations:

10.4% in storage/cleaning room
9.4% in locker room/restroom
9.4% in private residence
6.4% in departmental office
5.8% at the firing range/training

About 14% occurred in "elevated" stress situations, of which 9.9% occurred while "clearing an area."

About 35-40% occurred in "high" stress situations:
10.5% at traffic stops
5.3% searching for suspect
4.1% chasing suspect

In terms of tasks,

16.4% occurred when clearing the weapon
15.2% while performing function check
8.8% while unholstering
9.4% due to loss of balance while performing a task
7.0% while using off hand
6.4% occurred while working with an unfamiliar firearm
4.7% due to loss of grip/dropping weapon
4.2% involved catching on apparel
4.6% involved catching or contact with another object
3% due to startle response (visual or auditory)

In terms of actions:
double only 27,5%
pre-set 20.5%
double/single 5.8%
single 1.8%
not specified 4.1%

(O'Neill J, Hartman ME, et al. Further analysis of the unintentional discharge of firearms in law enforcement. Applied Ergonomics 2018 68:267-272)

Another study of UK military found a rate of 7.7 unintentional discharges per 100,000 Regular Army years. Of 1115 events, the most common were "unloading" (451), "making safe" (142), "making ready" (77), clearing (52), loading (37), with 234 unknown. Recruits in training were responsible for most (755) followed by trained recruits (255) and officer cadets (17) with 95 other/unknown. The majority of these, as you might expect for the Army, involved rifles.

(Stansfield T, Rushforth G. UK Armed Forces unintentional firearm injuries.BMJ Military Health 2009 155(1):20-23)

Another study found that running or other similar activity while carrying a firearm increased the risk of accidental discharge because of involuntary muscle movement in the hands. (Heim C, Schmidtbleicher D, Neiberfall E. Towards an understanding of unvoluntary firearms discharges: Possible risks and implications for training. Policing): An International Journal. 2006 29930;434-450.

These same researchers found that involuntary muscle movement was surprisingly important. They had police officers go through various scenarios. They found that in one situation, 20% of officers unknowingly put their fingers on the trigger of the pistol they were carrying, thus breaking trigger discipline.

I don't know about non-LEO discharges, but all of the negligent discharges I am personally familiar with occurred while people were engaging in some sort of inappropriate behavior -- horseplay, brandishing, etc. I know of only one "real" case where an injury occurred from "cleaning" a weapon -- the victim dropped the firearm setting things up and it went off, perforating his femoral artery.

It may be that the higher number of LEO incidents is simply because they handle their weapons more. I carry all the time, but I only unholster/clear/etc. the weapon every couple of weeks when I shoot. I keep the weapon in a pocket holster, and so I move the holster about without unholstering the weapon.

HMS Defiant said...

Thank you. That was informative.
I was blown away in several ways as a naval officer by the enormous number of AD/ND.
Our squadrons would have ND of 50 cal, .45, 9mm and M16 and reached the point where the GCO in Kuwait told our squadron CO, one more of these and I'm putting you in for an article 15. A lot of them happened in clearing barrels but I'm really old school and sneer at the idea my troops are so god damned stupid they need to have a barrel of sand to clear their weapon. As a boy I laughed at them in Fort Riley and sneered ever since
The weapon is ALWAYS loaded.
When I check them I don't mess around, I look through the magazine.

which reminds me again of the old crypto guy sitting at the table at the CRF telling the newbie, "Now remember, it is a crypto insecurity if someone hands you a crypto device with the battery still in it." I didn't like the KYK 13. Or KG7s.

Anonymous said...

Surroundings matter. It sounds as if you may not need to carry. I live up in the hills & hollers, and it's just wise to have a weapon around, for dangers both human and not. Law-enforcement response is about 45 minutes here.
--Tennessee Budd

HMS Defiant said...

Had a house in Encinitas, CA thought my daughter who was 4 could safely play in my fenced back yard, sitting in my house office managed to watch the neighbors dog clear the fence followed by 2 coyotes who are not social animals. Here on the fringe, one would be surprised at where some of the weapons are. There was a home invasion on the block a few years ago. I started shooting when I was ten and stopped shooting for all time sometime in my 30s. I hit anything I aim at. Bloggers always seem to force the shooting practice. been there, done that. I really regret NY. I would like to carry in Maine but the only way there is through NY and they're death on guns. OTOH, I have a lockbox I use to carry my guns on airplanes to place like LA and Korea and one would think, if it works on planes it would work in NY. OTGH, one really doesn't want to go jail.

capt fast said...

I've been comfortable with FNX45 for some time now. fits my hand. good reliable shooter. runs 235gr JHP just fine. as for round in the chamber of a SA/DA auto, yes. I practice carry safety a lot. found a holster that works. aliengear.
I've an older STAR Megastar which is an reliable and accurate shooter with a decocker. good Spanish steel. finding springs is problematic but I make do with Kansas City Spring. its retired. in a pinch, could be used as a club head for those zombie uprisings. used to shoot combat with this.accurate.
old reliable is an XD45 which more than once has been the difference. has military dna, alway functioned. always maintained. always loaded, no decocker or manual safety. carry with a chambered round. trigger and grip safety, pin disconnect, striker fired, four inch bbl. very secure in a proper holster. I am going to retire this weapon quite soon. very good close range instinctive shooter. going back to a hammer fired weapon-FNX45.
I carried a .38 spl in the USAF which had a requirement for nothing under the hammer. its a cowboy gun but not too heavy. it usually functioned is about the best I can say of it, it could stop a man, but would it stop, say, a tiger? of course not but that was a concern at the time.
USAF drew a line in the sand on aircrew and frags. all the smoke you could stuff into the vests, but not one frag. sadness. I took the NATO/RAF airbase defense and small unit tactics course at RAF Lossiemouth back when the USAF cared. the Brits emphasized the grenade as a defensive weapon that didn't give away your position. never forgot that.

capt fast said...

my only use for NY is it's someplace to dump the RV crapper. they need an insurrection or an intervention.

capt fast said...

I had a guy in my sqdn have an AD with an M-16. forked barrel devil. smacked to butstock onto the ground and the weapon fired. everyone dropped. Commander had him carry his weapon disassembled for a month everywhere he went, upper slung and lower in the left hand. learned his lesson not to screw around with M-16s that had seen better days. USAF bought them before any other branch. they were past field grade into graveyard grade. sqdn armorer was kept jumping.
I used to go to a range in Sacramento until the day I saw people sweeping others with weapon muzzles and no one thinking bad of it. never went there again.
there was a shop in denver metro with a twenty yard range indoors that had a customer shot in the head with a large caliber pistol(AD),. don't go there to shoot. good ammo prices.
the best place I know of for AD/ND is up at Pawnee Grass Lands. shaking my head....

HMS Defiant said...

I reached the point where it was a chore to shoot. I shot at two place in San Diego, the police range off 93 and way out where I used to golf. The range by the golf course had a mehitabell I would shoot the bell. It was the end of the day and one is done target shooting and there it was/ The other range was the poice range and you could buy a box of 50 wadcutters for 7$. yeah, I don't shoot much anymore. If you think back to the wonderful Irish man in The movie, The Quiet Man, "you have a fine steady hand he said of my favorite actress. I used to go to the range to improve my aim.OK. I fell about 10 years ago and broke both wrists. Those potential bad guys that threaten me and mine are so lucky. And also, officer, I lost all my guns in a boating accident.

capt fast said...

feel your pain. lost so many weapons in the swamps of where ever that i've lost count. call me a fairweather plinker now. I do practice with my .45 as if my life depends on it. 5,000+ rounds and still waiting for it to jam. you never know. I'd sure hate to have to lose that pistol in the swamps of where ever as it's such a good shooter for me. Arthur is not my friend but I ignore him when necessary. dead men, it is said, feel no pain.

HMS Defiant said...

One of the saddest ND was of a young petty officer at the local squadron. Never really shot a weapon until he joined and then when he reported to the squadron he bought his own pistol and he and the chief were going to the range the next morning to learn how to really shoot. His live-in girlfriend told us that he was showing it off to her and pointed at his head, thinking it unloaded after dropping the magazine and pulled the trigger. Horrible for us, sad for all.